Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Energy in the Room. I'm Katie. Join me as I sit down with the inspiring voices shaping our energy future. Together, we'll share real stories, big challenges and honest advice from those leading the transition.
Let's dive in.
Today we're super excited to be joined by Jess Johnston, Chief People Officer at All Energy, to introduce Jess. Jess has got 15 years experience in HR with incredible leadership experience across M and a transformation workforce strategy and optimization.
Over the last few years, Jess has established the operational readiness and led the HR and people function for all at Energy who are Macquarie's onshore renewables platform.
We met properly last year about six months ago and one thing that really stood out to me with Jess was your dedication to workforce optimization and your enthusiasm about how people are, the success behind a business and how important the people are.
So this is going to be the focus of our chat today.
Thank you for joining us, Jess.
So you studied philosophy, you've got a background in financial services and insurance and now you're the CPA for a renewables company.
How did you find yourself in this seat?
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Yeah, so I'd say my career journey's been anything but linear and definitely not intentionally designed.
You're right. I did do a double major in philosophy in my undergrad, which was really enjoyable.
And when I went out into the workforce, I was working in hospitality at the time, was still trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I ended up in sort of a quasi legal and then eventually in corporate governance and that was in a large financial services, ASX listed environment.
So really great exposure. But it was really the people papers through the boards and committees that piqued my interest and I had a real curiosity.
So that curiosity actually led me to going back to university.
I was an assistant company secretary at the time, so it was a real career change to go into human resources and industrial relations and really start in HR from the ground up. So that was great exposure as well.
And I eventually did a Master of Labor Law. So during that time I was working at IAG and that's where I sort of had that training ground, which was fantastic and a lot of people practices and experience and throughout my career have had the opportunity of being across a number of M and A projects. So what I really observed was there was a pattern that continued to show up. So where organizations were not seeing so much success or were struggling, it was rarely because of the technical solution. So you could have the best designed org charts, you could have the sharpest strategy on a page, but it was usually because the human system hadn't been designed to handle the complexity.
So looking back at every move that I've made, including going into M and A, and we can talk about that more in a minute, every move has been about understanding how people, systems and environments shape outcomes, especially under pressure.
And that pattern really crystallized for me during a major integration early in my career. So when I was at iag, I actually transitioned over from what was Westfarmers insurance at the time.
And I was involved in the integration. It was 1500 employees, so taking it to a total of 10,000. And that was integrating people across.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: So what was that?
[00:03:57] Speaker B: 15,000 to 1500 into 10,000 strong?
Yeah. So quite a large scale transaction at the time. It was a $1.5 billion transaction and that was really getting people to integrate into a number of different functions and verticals across a really large organization. So different cult, different systems, different operating models and all while you've got high expectations and operating business as usual. So that experience really taught me that complexity doesn't scale linearly and it really compounds faster than headcount. So coming back to my job today, it's really about human infrastructure that actually allows the physical infrastructure in what we're building in renewables to actually work.
Um, and so I really look at my role about designing talent systems that are for utility scale growth.
So, yeah, key learning out of that experience quite early in my career is that when the human system fails there, there really isn't any amount of capital or technology that can compensate for that. So it really, it really highlights why the people aspect is so important. Because everything is delivered through people.
Yeah, I think in terms of how that related to my experience in M and A or mergers and acquisitions. So I was invited to join Deloitte post that integration and I nearly talked myself out of it. So it was imposter syndrome.
My age, which is crazy to think about. I was, I think 29 or 30 at the time and thought that was too old to make a transition into. Yeah, into management consulting.
But I spoke to a number of different people around me and in the end decided that I would regret not taking the stretch more than staying comfortable where I was.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: So and so, can I just ask you, the people that you spoke to, like, did you have a career mentor or was it more just like friends and family?
[00:06:04] Speaker B: It was a bit of a blend. So there were people that I considered career mentors at the time.
Interestingly, it was my partner who I spoke to who is in a completely different industry and I thought it was really Interesting. The way that he looked at it, he sort of explained it to me, suggests they've given you the keys to a plane that you don't know how to fly. And I saw that as incredibly scary and a bit of a silly thing. Whereas he saw that as you don't get it, they see the potential in you. And the more that I thought about it, I thought, well, what have I got to lose? I can always come back into what I'm doing.
It wasn't easy. It was, if I look back over my career, the experience that required a huge learning curve over a very quick period of time, and that was incredibly uncomfortable.
It really required me to lead through influence, rather over authority, and to manage teams and individuals with skills that I didn't yet have. And that was all while delivering in high pressure environments. So you're working in one of the top consulting firms in the world. You're working with clients who are ASX listed and they expect a certain level. So just in terms of the pressure and the quality that you expect to deliver.
But there were some really important lessons out of that experience as well. So. And that leads me to where I am today in terms of the leadership philosophy I apply. So shared value is much greater than individual brilliance and having that comfort with ambiguity. So I think what's really important in the industry that we're in, where growth and performance is so critical, is knowing that it doesn't come from the smartest person in the room. It's really about creating shared value across disciplines, across the industry.
The work that we do is really working with strategic partners and many different stakeholder groups to deliver the infrastructure for the energy transition. And not just for the energy transition, but for energy security, energy accessibility. So it's not one person and their IQ that's going to drive things. It's really about how do you leverage the full system. And that takes a bit of the pressure off you as an individual as well. It's like, how can I be creative and leverage what we have available to us and think a bit differently about that?
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think it's. That's. And that is one of the, one of the reasons why I wanted you to come on here was to talk about, I think in a lot of businesses in this sector, whether they're CEOs, founders, managing directors, those people probably are like, yeah, they're the brains behind the technology, or, you know, they've been in the energy sector for years, like a lead developer or something. But that doesn't mean that they know how to scale a team and how to like grow their business from a people perspective.
And I think, yeah, your insight on how to go about that is really helpful. And that's why I kind of wanted to ask about like, your advice to hiring managers and people who are interviewing for people to join the team.
What's like, I'm jumping ahead a bit here from what we planned, but that's fine. Like, what's your advice around interview techniques and for people that maybe haven't had training on it and like to.
I think there's a lot of pressure for. You don't want to make a miss hire, especially in smaller team. Well, actually in any team, a Ms. Hire is like, it like has a big effect. So what's your advice around interview techniques?
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so interviews are just part of the puzzle. They're a data point and as you've highlighted, it's one context in which people will demonstrate capability.
But there are many other data points that you can test. So I would definitely say don't rely on one data point alone.
I'd say in my experience, most mis hires are design failures, not people failures. So again, for anyone who is a candidate that's interviewing preparation and values will outperform technical brilliance in my experience, from what I've seen. So a lot of the time people will look at technical capability or experience on paper. That doesn't always translate to success in the role that has been designed and the organizational context. So I think on both sides, it's really thinking about, you know, for the candidates, what do they bring, how doing a bit of due diligence and research on the organization and who you're interviewing with and being yourself, you know, obviously represent where your strengths are and where you feel that relates to the role in the organization. But also be really honest about where potential gaps might be and, and ask questions around the culture and how things are done around here and what will be expected. And equally on the interviewee side, be prepared, come with questions about the candidate. Don't just assume everything on paper is going to translate into a formula that spits out that's not how humans work.
And it's really, really important to have that values alignment because when the pressure is put on, that's what comes out. It's how the work is delivered, not just the technical theory and what people have done before. So I think the other thing there is, if there is a mis hire, which there sometimes are, you're dealing with humans and there's no perfect formula dealing with it early. It's the Kind of thing for everyone involved, having that clarity.
But importantly, you have to address it because you increase risk and it has all sorts of implications if you don't address it. It can be difficult, but efficiency and clarity win every time in my experience.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I think just back to the preparation piece. I think we're always talking to on the candidate side about preparation, but actually I think to your point, from a client side, you know, you may only have half an hour with this person for a first stage interview, like you do, you need to be prepared as well to like. And I think a lot of times, like, yeah, clients can go in and think, oh God, I haven't refreshed myself on their cv, I've been time short and like, I get that. But I think that it's more time efficient to just spend 10, 15 minutes preparing for what you really want. Like, what do you really want out of that conversation?
[00:13:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. If you're serious about getting the best person in the role and really getting that value, that little investment up front is going to pay dividends down the track. It really is a small investment, I'd say, on both sides. Just to summarise as well, what you really want to be looking for is aptitude and attitude.
So that ability to. Even if someone hasn't done all of the specifics before that you can throw things at them, they will learn, they'll find their feet and they'll do that quickly and they can adapt and change.
And the attitude piece is really around that cultural alignment, if you can get those in place, that trumps experience on paper.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: So what are your thoughts on psychometric tests in an interview process?
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it depends on the psychometrics you're using.
And again, it's a data point, it's not going to be the be all and end.
No, it's not a manual for. And there's no, as we say to people, there's no right or wrong.
It should give you a really fulsome picture of someone's style and how they're likely to respond in certain situations.
And if you've done again, some of that prep work around what the role requires and depending on where the level's at, the competencies, capabilities, and then you can sort of think about what are we going to expect from this role? Is it going to be a really high pressure one? Do we require them to do lots of leadership? Is it a high change environment, et cetera? Use psychometric as part of all of these different data points to make a decision on balance, what are the opportunities, what are the risks? And then put that all together in your decision making.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: See, I think I'm of the opinion if it makes someone, if it makes a hiring manager feel more comfortable to do a psychometric test, I think I'm of the opinion of and make the offer like secure the candidate they're coming on board and maybe do the psychometric test before they start so that their manager's prepped of like. Yeah, where like how they like to be managed or whatever that psychometric test results going to bring up.
I think I'm. Yeah, I don't think, I think it's a great thing during the interview process.
Well, I suppose it depends how much importance you place on the results and who's analyzing them. Yeah, it's a funny one. I just thought I'd ask because everybody has so many mixed opinions about it.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: I mean, if you're looking at some very technical roles that require a really high level of abstract reasoning or you know, ability to work through the numbers, then those competency aspects can be important.
But again they're a data point because someone could be having a really rough day. And that's why when I've seen them work really well is they have their plays but they're managed well, they've been selected intentionally and the people who are administering them manage that well with the candidate. So if you do have a scenario where someone's had an unusually, you know, sort of experience with it and that's come through in the testing, you have a follow up conversation, you get that context, you add that in.
So it's not an exact science, it's not the single decision making point, but again, it's all contextually dependent.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Agreed. And I really wanted to talk about diversity in the workplace with you.
I know that diversity is very complex and it's not just particular to gender, but as a woman in leadership and you know, obviously you said like you've suffered with imposter syndrome, you've had to take sort of big deep dives into opportunities and been really brave with things.
And here you are, like CPI would say that's a very, you're a very successful woman.
So what advice would you give to women who are looking to, well, take on leadership roles but also take on a role that's daunting to them. What's your kind of advice around that? I know we touched on it earlier with like speaking to those around you, but is there anything else that you'd share?
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Absolutely.
And some of this will be framed for females, but some of it will be irrespective of gender. So the statement I would make is that diversity only works when the environment is designed to support it. So it's all well and good to go out there saying diversity is important, but from an optics perspective, hiring diverse talent without that inclusive infrastructure to leverage the actual benefits and edge, yes, that's just going to create frustration for everyone.
So and I'd also say that diversity, it's about merit regardless of background. It's a very easy statement to make and there's a lot of nuance and a lot that sits behind that. But it's not just about who you hire, but how you enable people to contribute and belong. And without that infrastructure, diversity just doesn't deliver its potential.
Regarding your question around women looking to enter leadership roles, it's an interesting one because I've observed some things over the course of my career and sort of you look at at studies and the like and it's a huge generalization, but women usually wait to tick every box.
Obviously exceptions to that. But the thing I'd say about that is real growth comes before certainty. So irrespective of if you're male, female, non binary growth and progress is going to require discomfort from you.
And that's just a part of life. So if you're going to play it safe, then your career is likely to reflect that. But leadership isn't for everyone either. It is an enormous responsibility. It's being of service to others.
For some people that is enormously rewarding and really stimulating. And for others it's just not going to be something that they're up for. And that is completely okay.
But I think at a really high level, I would say understand yourself.
So as with the advice with candidates, understand your strengths, understand your gaps, understand your own performance system.
So you know things like your hormones and how that affects your energy levels and your performance, understand your nervous system and how that affects performance.
Once you have a really good understanding of yourself, you're going to be in a great position to back yourself and also seek out people who will back you as well. So having those people, whether it's career mentors or other people in your personal life, to bounce and to test you, really hold up the mirror. You know, I'm thinking about this opportunity. Everything's telling me to run away from it. What do you think?
And allow that testing and take that on board.
I'd also say irrespective of gender, again, the best leaders combine low ego with high standards. And that leadership ideal is what scales and performs and stands the test of time. So that would be my advice if you can combine low ego with high standards and just keep coming back to that whether you're in a leadership role. And there are plenty of individual contributor roles that demonstrate leadership role as well. So there are so many. Just because you're not leading a team or a function or an organization doesn't mean that you can't lead.
And in fact, leading peers and leading across functions is a hugely valuable and probably underrepresented in conversation skill. And leading across industry, there are so many people who may be an individual contributor but are making huge impacts across the industry.
So it really depends on how you define leadership as well.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, thank you. And like, when it.
I'd hope that no one does ask this question, but just around diversity and like why it's important. I'd love to get your take on that. Like, I think, yeah, recruitment, you always want the best person for the job and you can't, you know, you don't want to compromise that too much. But I think that having an awareness of the importance of a diverse workplace is like, like, like it's, it's necessary.
But I think sometimes people don't really think about why that is and you don't, it's not a box ticking exercise.
So yeah, just can you give us your take on like why diversity is important in a workplace?
[00:22:30] Speaker B: So I'll try and answer that practically. And you know, there are a few principles that sit underneath that. And if you get into sort of the purely philosophical side of things around what is just and right and as a human, human to human, the role of organizations as good corporate citizens.
But again, if you're operating as a business within contexts and communities, how are you supposed to understand those communities if your own workforce is homogenous, which is not representative of the Australian community and other communities? And there's a lot of diversity out there now. We're a small organization, we're 40 people currently.
It is challenging to try and get all of the diversity.
It's so broad.
But there are some really easy things that you can do. And if you select a few at a time and do them really well and do them with integrity, you can see those benefits. I think, you know, you only have to look to business literature and performance amongst organizations to understand that diversity, particularly in leadership, leads to better outcomes.
And that's not just value creation, that's also value protection. So making sure that any downside risk is managed. Because if you're Looking for consensus and sameness everywhere. You are going to get an echo chamber. That might feel easy, but there are going to be things that are missed.
So having diversity, having things in meetings like healthy conflict, someone playing the role of. Let me bring a different perspective here, just to test things, make sure that you've got robust processes, robust thinking.
You know, innovation doesn't come from thinking
[00:24:31] Speaker A: the same, everybody thinking the same.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: How do you get it?
It's not always easy, but a lot of things that lead to value and great outcomes are, you know, and actually
[00:24:43] Speaker A: you said like there are a few easy things that you can do, like, can you share a couple of those ideas?
[00:24:51] Speaker B: It's making sure as you're designing for things that you're putting consideration in, so things like your facilities, making sure not just one part of the business is designing the facilities. So I actually worked in a previous organisation where the facilities function, which I actually have reporting into me currently, which is fantastic, was sitting very separately and they did a full restack and you only had to go to each floor, which was designed differently on each floor to understand that someone with a disability would find it enormously hard to get in and out of the floor, which that is a design flaw in and of itself.
So it's really just making sure you've got these considerations built in. So the way that we look at it is things like having gender balanced interview panels.
We've got a 52% female representation in our workforce and that's the, you know, the largest demographic in our workforce is females between the ages of 35 to 50.
And so one of the things that has become important for us is knowing, well, you've got a large demographic, we want to ensure that we maintain against a backdrop in renewables where there's around 30% female representation, give or take, that we maintain really good balance. But that requires intentional design. So we ran some awareness and it's again just beginning the conversation at work around hormonal life cycle and how you can manage that. And that was across men and women, but there are more pronounced transitions for females and that was really around ensuring that the women in our workforce have a really good understanding. So it helps them in terms of understanding their energy.
Where do you go to for resources and support and importantly that oftentimes there'll be male or other non binary managers and making sure that they have an awareness so that when their female direct reports or indirect reports come to them, they're adequately equipped to deal with those conversations and support.
So it can be, it doesn't have to be a huge initiative or these really big, bold targets. I mean, they can be great in the right context.
It's really about stepping back and being quite considerate and intentional about how you're thinking about design. I had a conversation which was really interesting with someone on the technical design when it comes to some of these renewable energy assets. And they were talking about the severe underrepresentation of females in technical roles. And one of the questions was around the location of toilets on site. And that was countered with, well, it's actually really expensive and this is going to impact the economics of the project delivery. And I said that that may be the case, but at some point along the way, we have to look for a solution that protects both the economics of the project and ensures that an unintentional decision that's being made up front isn't inadvertently causing these.
Yeah, this underrepresentation further down the chain.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: I think that's a brilliant example of why diversity in leadership is important because you would maybe get.
I don't think a male would have that conversation and be championing it as much as you would be.
I think that is a prime example of people need to move the needle where possible. And maybe that would not be prioritized, that kind of conversation. But because you understand and you're not in an echo chamber of people who don't understand, you've pushed to have that conversation. And that's. Yeah, I think that's really important.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: And I don't claim to be an expert on it. There's so much to learn and there's lots of things, you know, very open to being challenged and make sure that we get the right minds around the table to solve for some of these problems and be really proud of being able to solve for them.
One of the other initiatives that was really pleasing just last year, so with our strategic partners, our construction partners, so they're really the boots on the ground on the site was making sure that the women's facilities there have feminine hygiene products that are available. Because when you've got a site that's, you know, 30, 40 minutes away from the township and any facilities to purchase, and you layer things in around period poverty, which a lot of people don't know about and a lot of people don't need to turn their minds to. We've. Our workforce certainly you could say wouldn't have to turn their minds to that, but it's important that we role model that. And with our construction partner confirmed that we now have those facilities available. So if We've got underrepresented groups. So if you think about in our communities, socioeconomic, our workforce, participants that we're actively trying to get to work on our sites, there's one less barrier there and it's really not that hard to do and it's not expensive, it's not going to erode your project returns. So little things like that that can be done, it's really getting practical. And speaking to the people that are impacted, rather than designing in, in corporate office, is really thinking about the full workforce and your demographics, the challenges they face and then designing for that.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to your point about, like, you know, you're actively trying to get these people to work on site, etc. Like, everybody is always asking us, what's the talent market like at the moment? So how.
How are you attracting talent? Whether it's, you know, for, like on. On site, in office, like, what's. How are you talent pooling? Because I think there is a massive talent shortage in renewables. And. Yeah, just be interested to get your take on how you're attracting talent.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah, so there's quite a bit of work around EVP that will continue.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: Employee value proposition.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: That's right, yeah. Thank you. And, yeah, look, I'd say the renewables industry, it's very much evolving and it's been evolving very quick.
It's got a maturing capability. I would say, coming from other industries like financial services, where you've had royal commissions and all sorts of things to mature the market, I'd say we're still very much building the leadership muscle that's required for the energy transition, and not just the energy transition, but for the future demand in terms of the way that we look at attracting talent. So we're really careful around how we draft our job adverts. We do put them through now, even a gender bias sort of review.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Yeah, we have that as well.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And making sure that we're capturing talent pools early.
So there's some great systems that are, you know, not too expensive and have really great functionality now that you can be gathering your talent pool. So each time you're hiring for a role, even though you have applicants who may not be necessarily a fit for that role, you're pooling them for later on. And as long as you can have build great relationships and build a system around that, I think that sets you up quite well to then leverage those pools when you need to.
But I think coming back to employee value proposition, it's really being clear around what's the given the get there for people so that you are attracting people who align to that. So in your organization, what are the things that people are going to get from working there? What are they going to get from the industry?
And then you can sort of test that out as you're going through the process to get that really good alignment. So not just looking at the capacity side of things when we talk about headcount and growth and scaling, but really that alignment. And I was speaking with my counterpart at DT Infrastructure about the talent supply. Actually, Leon is meritlian and just love the way that he thinks about it really pragmatically as well, where rather than looking at, you know, we've got these technical capabilities and we need these particular sort of skill sets to slot in.
There are adjacencies that exist out there at the moment. We've got, you know, other power sources that are going to be decommissioned. And how can you look at existing talent, augment that and redeploy it. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of work that can be done at an industry level, which is often stymied by, you know, rather than looking at each other as competitors, we're all trying to work together to deliver something here for. For Australia is really putting segmenting into some pretty broad capability sets and so really opening your mind around, you know, you've got logistics, you've got delivery.
How can you get individuals, again with the aptitude and attitude who have maybe other outside of other technical capabilities?
And how can we design to lift and shift that and appropriate it for what we currently need? And then how do you also build for future? Because you do need a pipeline that's going to service the ongoing demand in the future.
[00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And there's no silver bullet, there's no answer to that question. It's just going to be people like yourself, people like me, who are trying to do what we can to change the mindset as well of people not being too open to taking people outside of the sector.
But yeah, we absolutely need to do what we can to upskill that workforce, to come over and help with the energy transition, because obviously, like, we need to get them from somewhere.
So, yeah, that's really interesting.
Well, thank you so much for coming on and chatting.
And then we always ask at the end of our podcast if you could recommend someone that you'd like to hear from and you think people listening would like to hear from, who would it be?
[00:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's not an individual per se, but I think selecting someone from this group, if I reflect on how much the geopolitical landscape has shifted over the last three years that I've been in the industry you know when we look at things like energy security supply chain resilience inflation and the national interest let alone global interests and how that's diverged as well would really value from hearing from infrastructure investors and super funds on how they're now assessing talent and leadership capability as part of long term risk and value creation so if I think about ULLA and other players in the industry you know for asset owners with multi decade horizons organizational resilience succession depth and leadership capability are increasingly central to protecting that downside risk and delivering sustainable returns through cycles so you know we're not just looking at what do we need today this is something that we need for many decades to come and yeah would really love to hear from them on how they're looking at
[00:36:37] Speaker A: things now I'll get onto it thanks
[00:36:40] Speaker B: so much Jess thanks so much Katie it's been a pleasure.
